Resort Packages

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by James on December 6, 2008 at 5:25pm

FYI, we never said we want the site to be non-commercial...to the contrary, my.steamboat.com exists to help facilitate people's vacation planning experience, and hopefully, their vacations. That, and provide a warm and friendly place for people to share Steamboat memories, ask questions, etc...

I've tried to be clear that our main reason for not allowing any commercial links (newspapers, photo sites etc.. are ALL OK) is to prevent the site from looking like a billboard and forcing the human conversations to the periphery. Hopefully the amount of merchandising, group facilitation, calendar management etc... that we do, though commercial at a fundamental level, will be executed in a tasteful and non-interfering way.

Hope this helps clarify what we're trying to do.

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Permalink Reply by Stbtskier on December 6, 2008 at 5:43pm

If the first part of your statement is true then why can't someone answer questions (for example, about a particular condo complex) with a link to a site that will help. If someone is asking about ski in/out lodging then you can name complexes and give links to direct them to that lodging. This would be helpful in "facilitating their vacation planning experience".

If you are worried about it forcing human converstaions to the periphery, then just allow the links to be posted under one heading and delete them if they show up anywhere else. I already see links to lodging showing up elsewhere. Just make sure it all is in the same discussion area. It is then the person's choice to seek information or not. To me it seems that would be a great addition to your site. Why don't you ask your members if they would like to see something such as this idea or something similar added?

Dave

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Permalink Reply by James on December 7, 2008 at 9:26am

The first part of my statement is true, it's just not as simple as you imply. There are lots of consequences to little changes in policy, and grey areas always exist, as do people that rigorously explore and sometimes attempt to exploit these grey areas to their own benefit even when the spirit and policies of the site are communicated clearly and posted or linked-to from the homepage. As to the "why" of our policy, I've explained that in several threads here, but will be providing a brief posting that goes into the social, business and sheer content moderation load factors that have informed us in this case.

The commercial links that are showing up in different areas of this site are all out-of-bounds, it's just the case that we're not deleting them ourselves, but rather using the opportunity to communicate w/the posters what our policy actually is, and why it is in place. By not editing the site content but rather asking people to edit their own posts we are choosing to live by our own policy which states, in effect, that we leave the content alone except in two cases: 1.) we ask people to change something, or 2.) we delete a user that has violated our terms in a clear and harmful way (obscenity, personal attacks, etc...)

Our policy is not unusual on the web, and as a matter of fact was based on a popular site (millions of posts/views a year) with a similar mission (though in a different industry).

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Permalink Reply by James on December 6, 2008 at 6:25pm

Will consider the concrete suggestions from SbtSkier and MountainMover and post back here with replies. For now I'm going to say that the no-commercial-links policy stands.

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Permalink Reply by SteamboatRider on December 7, 2008 at 9:55am

Despite being someone who commented on the links policy in the Links Policy Thread, I have to say that I agree (on the whole) with the policy of not allowing commercial links on these forums.

The argument about trying to encourage human dialogue rather then just people promoting/spamming their own businesses is a compelling one. I hate seeing people asking questions on other forums about specific topics only to have several replies essentially saying "I don't know about your original question but why not check out my company at www.cash-in-my-pocket.com"

It's incredibly difficult to decide where to draw the line and I have a lot of sympathy for James & Co in having to try to decide what is and what is not acceptable.

Ultimately, if the ski-corp said there was a blanket ban on commercial links, they would be well within their rights albeit it wouldn't endear them to many locals or potential visitors looking for impartial information.

At the end of the day, if you're permitted to make commercial references (using a company or business name without a link) then you're better off than you would be on a lot of other forums. What has to be avoided is for someone to ask about lodging only to have the next reply say 'Check out www.lodgingcompanyA.com'. That then 'forces' that companies competitors to post 'No, check out www.lodgingcompanyB.com'....'No, check out www.lodgingcompanyC.com' etc etc. The thought makes me shudder!

As much as it might cause pain not to be allowed to promote your business on such a good forum, does anyone really want to start online posting wars?

With all of that said though, I do equally dislike SkiCorp using this as a means to promote their own deals, packages etc. That never happened on the old forums and imho shouldn't start now. If it's meant to be an impartial forum, keep it that way - as a source of information for guests and not as a marketing tool. It's contentious having different rules for 'them and us' and normally leads to resentment/problems.

P.S. I've just registered www.lodgingcompanyA/B/C.com ;-)

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Permalink Reply by James on December 7, 2008 at 6:07pm

Steamboatrider: You completely nailed it regarding the mutually assured link destruction scenario above.

I'd like to comment on two of your other points, one is the impartiality comment, and the other is regarding promotion.

Our current policy is the only way I've seen to achieve both high quality (keep-it-real is what I mean by high quality here) impartial info and prevent link spam. Please go ahead and name any company or service provider you like. That, and your opinion if you like.

Regarding promotion: We already promote over 100 non-resort-owned local lodging options. In addition to lodging, we also promote dozens of local activity and service providers, as well as non-profit organizations like Yampatika. All of this is on www.steamboat.com, and many have been mentioned on this site already.

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Permalink Reply by trudeska on December 7, 2008 at 10:18am

Since the "package and deals" section of the forum is really only for the SKi Corp and not really an open forum section I think it shouldn't be listed among the rest.

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Permalink Reply by James on December 7, 2008 at 6:16pm

I understand what you mean, and will figure out a way to either rename or move our Packages & Specials forum so folks can clearly see that it is in effect a support forum for our reduced price offerings.

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Permalink Reply by phrog on December 7, 2008 at 11:37am

Jumping in here because this thread is hijacked anyway.

my.steamboat.com is a very strong community building tool provided by a very large commercial company.

Members see my.steamboat as a community while The Ski Corp surely looks at it as advertising. Ski Corp would like to sell Ski tickets, Lodging, you name it. Visitors want to plan out a vacation with tips from other members. Encouraging visitors to communicate with each other while moderating with the Ski Corporations best interest in mind is sure to cause some headaches.

I feel many members of these types of community websites assume that the site is theirs. With domain names starting with "my." it is easy to see why. However companies start community websites like this to draw in members and sell you something, plain and simple.

This is why, back in April http://steamboatforums.com was created, dedicated to building community and remaining non-commercial. It exists for YOU.

So if you are having trouble with the link policy here and you are getting all wound up, there are alternatives.
Give the moderators a break and post to an appropriate place on the Internet, then everyone is happy :)

my $.02

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Permalink Reply by skiwoods on December 7, 2008 at 11:54am

Very well said Phrog.

I like visiting here 'cuz it's a nice place for folks with common interests to share thoughts and ideas, albiet within the guidelines of the moderators.

BTW, I thought as a Phrog, you were very appropriate "jumping in" on this thread!

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Permalink Reply by James on December 7, 2008 at 5:40pm

I more or less agree with what Phrog says above. Essentially, this site has constraints that stem from the nature of its creator and maintainer...the Steamboat Resort.

Just like my.steamboat.com, there exist local newspaper forums, Phrog's forums, and probably soon to be others. Our goal is to create a resource for planning vacations and sharing Steamboat-related experiences, photos/vids etc.. *while also* honoring our internal business requirements. We are interested in evolving these forums over time to more closely support community (that's you) desires while also keeping a balance with our nature as a viable business. These two desires and goals need not be incompatible, but finding a balance or structure that works is not without its challenges, and key among these challenges is adding value for all of our users within the above-mentioned context of the resort as a business.

I've been a participant of online forums since shortly after the rocks cooled and dinosaurs first started building computer networks, and hope we can all do what Phrog says, which is to consider what is the proper place for the particular post we want to share. Here at my.steamboat.com we are providing personal blog/photo/video space, over a dozen forum areas with lots of discussions, and soon a growing number of "groups" which are like a forum but with it's own homepage plus some other features. This may cover a lot of the discussion-space that surrounds Steamboat the resort/town, and the greater Yampa valley area, but not all.

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions, critiques and understanding as my.steamboat.com continues to grow and hopefully bring a snowflake (or maybe 2 feet of pow?) of joy to your day. We crossed 250 members today, and the chatter here is exactly what we were hoping for.

-James

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Permalink Reply by Stbtskier on December 7, 2008 at 6:08pm

Fair enough but I believe you as a company will lose money by not allowing one part of your site to advertise. I know that we have had at least 4 different families book our condos through vrbo that would not have come to Steamboat otherwise. They would have chosen a resort where the lodging and cost to ski were not as costly. The product you offered was too expensive and we were able to offer them a a vacation they could afford and still have nice lodging. These families will still buy your lift passes, eat in your restaurants, and spend money shopping in our town. I know that I am only talking about 4 families (over $8,000 worth of lift passes) but I'm sure there are others that are looking for ways to enjoy a family vacation without breaking the bank also.

I know we depend on you to provide the product (skiing) that brings the families to our town. I feel that you don't think that you have any dependence on the town or the owners of the condos that provide the lodging for the guests that you attract. If Intrawest were to have to build and own the lodging to support the mountain the cost would be astronomical and prohibitive. We should work more as a group in the best interest of the guests that we depend on.

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